Carbless Massing

[iron addict]

At the time I write this, I have about 10% of my training clients doing carbless (keto) massing. Why? Well, I can tell you it wasn't my idea. I still believe that the fastest mass gains happen when the trainee is taking in the most carbs THEY can consume without adding fat at a fast pace.

So why are they doing this? It was their idea. They had run a keto diet for fat loss and like pretty much anyone that runs a keto diet, they came to the realization that:

A) They feel MUCH, MUCH better without carbs. If someone has never done it they simply will not understand this, and most will insist they need carbs to feel good--they are WRONG.
B) Body fat gets low very fast, and performance is pretty much unaffected as long as you are not a volume trainer, or do a lot of high intensity cardio.

After awhile of doing a keto, they simply did not want to go back to the mood and energy swings that occur on a carb based diet. They asked me if they could mass this way, I told them they would do better with carbs, and they asked if they actually COULD do it, and I told them sure, it works. So......they basically do trace carbs 5-6 days a week, and have 1-2 days, sometimes less of carb-refeeds.

Go look at pictures on this forum of XX, and Boostnmuscle. They are both carbless massing. I do not train XX but we talk a lot. I do train Boost, and these are not guys that just lift weights, these are guys that compete in bodybuilding and weigh 240-250 off-season leaner than most guys are at anytime of the year. They are both very successfully carbless massing, as are the other trainees I work with.

Is it optimal for mass gains? No IMO. Does it allow good gym performance without carbs? YES, as long as you have went 4-6 weeks without carbs to allow the body to fully adapt to using carbs as fuel. Do you need carb refeeds doing this? YES, but they can be as little as 1/2 days of carbs. Will you stay leaner and feel better doing this. Well, yes, that is why people choose to do this. They understand that they may gain a bit more muscle with carbs in the diet, but they won't stay nearly as lean. Performance is simply not an issue despite what the unknowing may tell you. This assumes you are NOT a 20 set a bodypart pump artist.

If you are under 21 I would NOT recommend you doing this. Please don't ask me why. Take my word for it.

Having said that I do not think it is optimal for mass gains I will be using a similar lean mass approach when I am done with the fat loss portion of my diet, but it will be more like a TCD with a keto slant. At age 46 I really don't care to weigh 240 anymore, in fact, I just am looking for a more refined 210 lb body, at about 8% bodyfat year round. And this is doable for ME. Feeling good, and having great energy is more important that a few extra pounds on the scale and if you have never done a keto, or TCD with very limited carbs, you have no idea how good you end up feeling. Every week I get calls from training clients that are doing their first TCD or keto diet and are simply amazed at how good they feel without the carb blood sugar roller coaster taking them for a ride

IA

[slyfox115]

I was waiting for you to post something like this IA....very good read. This is how I will structure my offseason after my show is over. I gotta say too that a BW of 210 at 8% is crazy at 46...but very attainable with how you know your body.

[iron addict]

Originally Posted by slyfox115

I was waiting for you to post something like this IA....very good read. This is how I will structure my offseason after my show is over. I gotta say too that a BW of 210 at 8% is crazy at 46...but very attainable with how you know your body.

I am close to 8% right now at 205 after a refeed, but am fighting with a few pockets of fat on my low back, low abs, and inner quads that look.....well......stupid as low as everything else is. The goal is to get to 6%, get rid of the bit of stubborn fat, and then work on a few weak points while SLOWLY bringing bodyfat up to 8% or so and gaining a bit of muscle at the same time. I will likely have a photo shoot done when I am happy with how I look. Things are shaping up nicely despite not being able to squat and deadlift at the moment due to my f'ing low back

Wesley

[Richard85]

when you mean they "feel" better... do you mean that their mood is more positive and they can concentrate better... say at work or school?

[boostnmuscle]

Richard, Idk if you feel fine all the time eating carbs, but once u have felt the "steadiness" and all day energy effects of low carbing you will see what I mean. When I eat carbs, I personally have that roller coaster effect, sluggish, yawning, tired. Cant help it. On a bulk low carb high fat diet (i say this because I doubt I stay in keto very long during the week as I tend to have pwo carb ups a few times a week and usually one pwo feeding is just pro fat say on a monday after a sunday refeed why use carbs pwo?? I feel great all day long and I can throw down a TON of food. 500+ pro and 230 g of fats is EASY and I literally am still hungry at the end of each meal because meat+veggies+fats gives me no bloat and digests extremely fast. Calories are higher than past mass phases and I am absolutely leaner

[slyfox115]

Another factor is you think if the calories per gram that fat has compared to carbs, which is 9. That is more than double of what carbs has.

And boost, I feel you on the steadiness. I don't think you necessarily need to be IN keto to feel the steadiness, just lower in the overall amount.

[boostnmuscle]

Originally Posted by slyfox115

Another factor is you think if the calories per gram that fat has compared to carbs, which is 9. That is more than double of what carbs has.

And boost, I feel you on the steadiness. I don't think you necessarily need to be IN keto to feel the steadiness, just lower in the overall amount.

Exactly. Once in keto, you feel on top of the world, but on a mass diet I will still have pwo carb ups some days like I said as Ill also have a small amount of berries in shakes or not be as anal about how much green veggies or trace carbs from nuts per meal..Am I in keto ? maybe some days, maybe not but the steady energy I get from low amounts of carbs and very little insulin swing is what makes the difference

[iron addict]

Boost,

You are likely in ketosis 90+% of the time over a 7 day period on your current diet. That said:

1. You do NOT need to be in ketosis to be dropping fat fast.
2. A quick pwo carb feeding that is not super high in carbs and features fast carbs WILL bump you out of keto for awhile, but if we are talking a guy that is depleted and trains hard, it will only likely be a few hours until they are back in keto.

Wesley

[Aussiebattler]

Could someone please post a sample of there current keto diet plan?

[sparkymark7]

Originally Posted by iron addict

At the time I write this, I have about 10% of my training clients doing carbless (keto) massing. Why? Well, I can tell you it wasn't my idea. I still believe that the fastest mass gains happen when the trainee is taking in the most carbs THEY can consume without adding fat at a fast pace.

So why are they doing this? It was their idea. They had run a keto diet for fat loss and like pretty much anyone that runs a keto diet, they came to the realization that:

A) They feel MUCH, MUCH better without carbs. If someone has never done it they simply will not understand this, and most will insist they need carbs to feel good--they are WRONG.
B) Body fat gets low very fast, and performance is pretty much unaffected as long as you are not a volume trainer, or do a lot of high intensity cardio.

After awhile of doing a keto, they simply did not want to go back to the mood and energy swings that occur on a carb based diet. They asked me if they could mass this way, I told them they would do better with carbs, and they asked if they actually COULD do it, and I told them sure, it works. So......they basically do trace carbs 5-6 days a week, and have 1-2 days, sometimes less of carb-refeeds.

Go look at pictures on this forum of XX, and Boostnmuscle. They are both carbless massing. I do not train XX but we talk a lot. I do train Boost, and these are not guys that just lift weights, these are guys that compete in bodybuilding and weigh 240-250 off-season leaner than most guys are at anytime of the year. They are both very successfully carbless massing, as are the other trainees I work with.

Is it optimal for mass gains? No IMO. Does it allow good gym performance without carbs? YES, as long as you have went 4-6 weeks without carbs to allow the body to fully adapt to using carbs as fuel. Do you need carb refeeds doing this? YES, but they can be as little as 1/2 days of carbs. Will you stay leaner and feel better doing this. Well, yes, that is why people choose to do this. They understand that they may gain a bit more muscle with carbs in the diet, but they won't stay nearly as lean. Performance is simply not an issue despite what the unknowing may tell you. This assumes you are NOT a 20 set a bodypart pump artist.

If you are under 21 I would NOT recommend you doing this. Please don't ask me why. Take my word for it.

Having said that I do not think it is optimal for mass gains I will be using a similar lean mass approach when I am done with the fat loss portion of my diet, but it will be more like a TCD with a keto slant. At age 46 I really don't care to weigh 240 anymore, in fact, I just am looking for a more refined 210 lb body, at about 8% bodyfat year round. And this is doable for ME. Feeling good, and having great energy is more important that a few extra pounds on the scale and if you have never done a keto, or TCD with very limited carbs, you have no idea how good you end up feeling. Every week I get calls from training clients that are doing their first TCD or keto diet and are simply amazed at how good they feel without the carb blood sugar roller coaster taking them for a ride

IA

I've seen people go stir crazy without carbs and the longer they were on it (8 weeks plus), the worse it got. For me, no carbs is great, I feel a lot better but I don't believe it can be better for everyone. Dr Willcot who runs Metabolic Typing research has run studies on athletes who have got fatter, slower and weaker by not eating carbs. He has also shown some to have the same effects by eating them. Everyone's unique with regards to this.